Ward 8 candidate Natalie Tessier joins Love the North for an in-depth discussion about housing, traffic safety, winter sidewalks, infrastructure, homelessness, provincial funding and municipal accountability.
Tessier says she entered the race because she believes strongly in giving back to the community. After decades of volunteer, education and board experience, she says serving as Ward 8 councillor would be another way to continue that work.
After knocking on approximately 4,000 doors, Tessier says the issue she hears about most is illegal rooming houses.
She describes single-family homes being converted into properties with eight, nine or more occupants, often creating parking problems, especially during winter snow clearing. Tessier says affordability may be part of the reason these arrangements are becoming more common, but residents are frustrated by the impact on neighbourhoods.
Her other major Ward 8 priorities are traffic calming, pedestrian safety and winter sidewalk maintenance.
Tessier says clear sidewalks are especially important for seniors, people with disabilities, parents with strollers and students walking to bus stops. She supports expanding a winter sidewalk pilot program that included plowing, sanding and follow-up clearing to keep sidewalks usable after storms.
Infrastructure is another major focus.
Tessier points to the City’s use of cured-in-place pipe technology to extend the life of aging water infrastructure without digging up entire streets. Her argument is that the City should address underground infrastructure first, then resurface the road afterward, rather than paving a street only to tear it up again a few years later.
She calls that kind of coordinated planning a smarter use of taxpayer dollars.
On the downtown Event Centre, Tessier says the project has reached the point where there is no realistic turning back. Her focus would be making sure there are no unnecessary cost overruns and that the downtown is improved so the new facility does not become a financial burden without delivering broader benefits.
The conversation also turns to homelessness and supportive housing.
Tessier points to projects such as Lorraine Street transitional housing, affordable housing developments and supportive housing for people dealing with addiction, mental-health challenges, brain injuries or domestic violence. She says these approaches can help people stabilize and eventually transition into permanent housing.
But Tessier also argues that municipalities are being asked to shoulder costs that should be supported more heavily by the province.
She points to infrastructure funding formulas that she believes disadvantage Greater Sudbury and says mining activity creates additional wear on local roads while provincial support remains limited.
Tessier supports lobbying for Greater Sudbury to receive more infrastructure funding and potentially be recognized as a special economic zone because of its importance to mining and critical minerals.
At the centre of her platform is the idea of stewardship.
For Tessier, that means reviewing budgets carefully, asking difficult questions, measuring the return on public spending and making sure decisions provide value without placing an unnecessary financial burden on residents.
Her message is that councillors are there to work for residents — and every decision should come back to whether taxpayers are receiving real value for the money they are being asked to contribute.
#Sudbury #Ward8 #NatalieTessier #SudburyElection #Housing #Infrastructure #SidewalkSafety #TaxpayerDollars #CityHall #Homelessness #GreaterSudbury #NorthernOntario #LoveTheNorth
Sudbury Ward 8: Natalie Tessier on Housing, Safer Streets and Getting Value for Tax Dollars
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Transcript ~5,005 words · ~25 min read
Ward 8, Natalie Tessier is here. Natalie, good to see you. Thank you for having me. So Ward 8 is your home town or your home ward where you grew up? Yes it is. I grew up on Galloway Court just off the corner of West Mountain Berrydown area. Okay. So and now we're living closer to Cameron College, just off Maley. Still in Ward 8. Okay, the apple hasn't fallen too far from the tree. No it hasn't.(...) What's causing you to run?
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Well, my husband and I are doers. Oh. Yes. Okay. And by doers I mean that we have a philosophy that you have to give back to your community.(...) And that's really well summed up by a rotary model, service above self. Okay. So my husband and I, for example, have been rotarians for over 20 years in Chappelow. And since our move back to Sudbury we've joined the Rotary Club of Sudbury. Yeah. And hoping to continue philanthropic works and benefit the community and benefit other charities across the world as well. Okay.(...) We've given back in other ways.(...) Currently, for example, even though I've moved back to Sudbury, I am chair of Cerviz de Santi, Chappelow Health Services, which means that I'm board chair of the hospital and the family health team and Cedar Grove, which is an assisted living situation or an assisted living apartment building for seniors in Chappelow. Okay.(...) I'm also a board member of public health, Sudbury and districts have been for six years. And again, representing currently, Chappelow, Wawa, no, sorry, Chappelow, Foliatt and Go Gamma.
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Again, it's just important to give back.(...) And I feel I have a few good years left in me and I'm recently retired.
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Running and serving as Councillor for Ward 8 is my way of giving back to the community. So you have a little bit of experience in running and working with people? 100%. As a school principal, you're dealing with families, students, superintendents,(...) the whole nine yards. You've got many irons in the fire. Yes. So when it comes to your ward, you've been outdoor knocking? Yes, I am proud to say that we've knocked on over just around 4000 doors. Okay. And how many doors are in that ward? A little under 5000. Okay. To wrap this up shortly, I have a block left on the(...) Hawthorne to Gemmel area and apartment buildings. And that is our focus over the next week. And then I will have knocked on every single door in the ward. That's crazy. I know on a good day, 15,000 steps. Really?
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Oh, that's really good.
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So when you are knocking, what are you...
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So to me, Ward 8 is the heart of New Sudbury.
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And, you know, New Sudbury might have different issues and other areas.
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What are you hearing from the people that you've been talking to? Like you've almost covered 80% of them. Yes.
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I think the number one thing that comes up are the illegal rooming houses. That is really, really, really frustrating property owners in our ward. Yeah. And I know it's not just a Ward 8 issue. It is an issue across the city. Now, perhaps we feel it a bit more because we're close to Cambrian College and when you're close to a post-secondary institution, that might arise. But that is definitely the issue I seem to hear the most about when I doorknock.(...) So what is a(...) rooming type house?
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It will be a single family dwelling, a three bedroom or a four bedroom house. Yeah. That has been purchased by an investor. Okay. And you are seeing a very large number of people residing within that house. So typically a three bedroom, four bedroom house, you're looking at a family of four to six people on average. Yeah.(...) In these homes, you will see(...) eight, nine, even more people within that house. How many vehicles are there? A lot. More like they're spilling out to the road? Yes. And that is a big complaint that I hear when I doorknock and(...) it's really frustrating people,
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especially in the winter. What happens when snow plowing? You get your vehicle can't be on the road. Exactly. Exactly. And I've had,(...) I've had some good conversations about people.(...) They're saying exactly what, like you're saying, the car is on the side of the road. The plow is trying to get by.
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Then they're coming back for a cleanup. And then invariably the person who is across from the rooming house or near the rooming house or on the corner from the rooming house winds up with a bigger dump of snow in their driveway and it's just a big source of frustration. Okay. So, um,(...) does that, you know, is that happening because of the affordability issue that's happening for everyone? I'm sure that's part of the issue. Um, and again, being close to a post-secondary institution, there may be students that are looking for affordable housing to attend classes. Um,(...) I can't really comment specifically because I haven't spoken in depth with them, any people who live in these, uh, rooming houses. Some work as well. Um, certainly affordability is a factor. Okay.
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Um,(...) roads and infrastructure, um, city services,(...) um, you know, should you get elected, what would be your, actually, what would be your top three priorities? Should you be, uh, you know, sitting in the hot seat on the, well, when the time comes, what would you focus on? For the ward? For your ward, let alone the city as a whole, because you still,(...) you have to vote on issues throughout the whole municipality. A hundred percent.(...) So for my ward, uh, first priority would be rooming houses. Okay. Um, second property would be, uh, traffic management, traffic calming and pedestrian safety. That's another issue that comes up often as I doorknock. Really? Yes. Okay. Yes. And the third one is implementing the winter sidewalk pilot program that was in place. So first I was going to ask you, do you have sidewalks on both of the street in your ward or sometimes it's just on one side of the street?
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Auger has sidewalks on both side of the street. Yep. Um, most of the streets have sidewalks on only one side. Okay. So what does this, what does this have to do with your winter pilot sidewalk safety initiative? So essentially, um,(...) I guess COVID really made people realize how important it was to get outside and get some fresh air. There's that C word again. The C word. Yes. Okay. Fresh air is good. Fresh air is good. Fresh air is essential really for, for good mental health as well and physical and, um, people really began to realize how important sidewalks are in the winter when you want to get outside and take a walk and get out of your house and clear your mind.(...) Um, we are thinking also for seniors, for people with disabilities, for moms that are pushing, uh, strollers or strollers, moms with babies, and for students that are trying to get to their bus stops safely. Okay. Um, a clean sidewalk is essential. So basically what that winter pilot maintenance did was they would plow sidewalks and then you would have a team that would come and touch up afterwards and send and make sure they were clear. So there were no ruts. They would hand bomb that. Uh, not well, they had their little machines there. Yeah. The machine. Cause you can't, uh, I would think it's in, you know, just my, my two cents.(...) You can't be going there with the shovels and doing that, but the machine. Yeah. Cause you got to look, you got to do it in a, um, large scale. Exactly.
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So keeping the sidewalks nice and you know, sometimes the snow banks could be on either side, like quite, quite large, depending on how much snow, um, you know, in past years, I don't remember seeing, you remember how at night you would have this snow blank, the snow bank clearing team and you'd see it down Paris or where they, they come in, they, you know, dump truck after dump truck, taking that away. Uh, I guess that still happens. That still would have to happen. Should we get another big dumping of snow? Yes. And actually I think that's one of the recommendations that came forward after snowmageddon. Yeah. Um, what was it? A mayor left. I said, we're very good at pushing snow, but now we have to be better at removing snow. Yeah. It's got to go somewhere.(...) Because in the urban areas, you don't have space. Yeah. You, you can only pile it on the lawn so much. You just, like you said, you have to get rid of it.
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So in the rural areas, no problem. Just putting it further into the ditch(...) and away you go. So, uh, with your, with your snow, the third thing, the third priority on your list, the removing of the snow is, is high up there. Sure it is. Yeah. And clearing the sidewalks as well, clearing them and sanding them and making sure there's no(...) snow banks or whatever so that people can get out safely. Um, I had a mom, for example, uh, near my house say, I don't want my kids walking in the street in the winter to catch their bus. It's not safe because you have people that are backing out of their driveways and the snow banks are high. Yeah. Because I want my kids on a sidewalk. I don't blame her. Yeah. Yeah. On the sidewalk is a, it makes sense.(...) Well, it seems like it's common sense. It's common sense. Yes. And the kids can't see over the edge of the snow bank because they may not be very tall. And kids are kids. They're impulsive as well, right? Yeah. So you really got to keep an eye on them. Um, with that,(...) the,(...) the, uh, what is it? You know, that's all gotta be paid for. 100%. It's all gotta be paid for. So. There is a cost. I am aware, but, um, staff did a report and, uh, even though there is a cost to go ahead and implement it because there is value for money and, uh, the satisfaction level from people was very high and they therefore decided that it was worthwhile.(...) So staff did a report, not a consultant. Staff did a report. Okay. That's good. Money was done, kept in house.
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Um,(...) so with, with the taxes are, is overall from what you've seen from the, um,(...) are the taxes, the tax money is what it is. Is it being used effectively or is there some other ways that it can be,(...) you know, used(...) more efficiently?
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Well, I will say that, um, I think the city is taking a strategic approach. Uh, and I mean, I will say taxes are high. I believe me, um,(...) we got our property bill and compared to Shabla. Oh yeah.
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Really? Uh, bit of a shock. Yeah. Um, uh, having said that though, I do know that the city is trying to find efficiencies and I understand when people are frustrated and are saying I've lived on my street for 20, 30, 40 years. It's never been redone. It's cracked. Uh, I pay high taxes. Why can't my street be fixed? I get it. Okay. So I'll give you an example of something that, that impresses me with respect to how the city is addressing infrastructure.
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So, um,(...) it's nice to think about, Oh, I want a nice smooth street, but we have to think about the infrastructure underneath and within this ward, many of the homes were built in the late fifties, the sixties and the early seventies. So that means that the infrastructure underneath, like your water lines and your sewer lines were put in at that same time and they are coming up to end of life, right?(...) So you don't want to be spending money resurfing or resurfacing a street to then have to dig it up two, three, four years later to repair a broken water line. So what should be done?(...) The city is extending the life of that underground infrastructure by re-aligning the water pipes. So it's curing pipe technology and it's really cool. So what they'll do is that they will, um, uh, cut one end of the pipe, run a liner through(...) and then, um, run a sponge through to expand that liner into the pipe and then cure it with hot water. So now you have a smooth surface. There is no sediment. You're adding to the structural integrity of the pipe and you're prolonging that infrastructure, but it is much cheaper than digging up an entire street, pulling out the old pipe and reinstalling new pipe. It sounds like putting in a stent. Exactly. That's a very good analogy. Thank you. Okay. I'm going to use that. Use that one. Cause the stent goes in and I don't know anything about healthcare, but when you pump it up or do whatever they do, it expands. Yeah. And it re-establishes flow.(...) Okay. So(...) that's a cost effective way of doing things. Yes. And then once you've dealt with the infrastructure underneath, then you can do a scrape and resurface on the street and give it a nice smooth surface. So that's happening currently in the ward. It's happening? Yes, it is. Whose idea was that? I imagine it was the city engineers that came up with that plan, uh, as you know, as technology evolves, right? Yeah. Whoever thought of that is, uh, or getting it implemented, they should, uh, get a sticker on their coffee cup today. A gold star. A gold star. Definitely. So that holistic approach to dealing with the underground infrastructure and then resurfacing the street the following year, I think is a very smart way to do things. And that let's, let's, let's give the city credit for that. Yeah. I'd say, uh, maybe two gold stars. Two gold stars. Hey, I like that. That, that, you know what, that's, that sounds like, uh,(...) it sounds like it's pretty good, it's a pretty good way of addressing. Cause otherwise in my head I was thinking, okay, this, this house is dug up this house. Could you imagine having a piles of dirt on everyone's grass going down all the streets? So if that really works and(...) solves a problem long-term, then, uh, you know, this bet's that's, that's really good. Yeah. So I think people just have to be patient. Like I know right now this, this relining is happening, um, in the, um, uh, I think it's Fairbank street, the, uh, in the area or by Churchill public school, they are working right now, they are relining those, those, those water lines, those water mains. And, um, if I'm not mistaken, the following year, uh, they should be resurfaced. The city is also tackling, it's not in our ward, but it's in the ward next to us. Uh, uh, Leon street. So that's happening there as well. So they are, I guess, assessing, um, the, the infrastructure, the, and based on condition rating, then establishing priorities as to which streets or which sections of streets are being done. You know, getting a little bit too detailed, is it the city workers that are doing it or is it contractors? Well, the, um, the curate pipe technology is a, it's a company it's called FERPOW. Oh yeah. They are the ones that are doing it. Um, but, uh, I do know that, um, I was able to actually watch them do it. Yeah. Run the lighter through and then run the sponge to, uh, to inflate it and then hook it up to, to start to cure it. It's actually really cool. Um, there was a city worker there that was, um, supervising. Yep. Yep. Okay. Right on. Um,(...) the event center downtown(...) that's, uh, you know, it keeps, it keeps coming back up, uh, and it is election time. It is. So, um,(...) what are your thoughts on the, the event center? It's already underway.(...) Um, where are you on it?(...) I think we are at the point of no return. Okay. There's no going back now. I mean, they have purchased properties. Yeah. They've, um, expropriated wacky wings. Yeah.(...) Construction has started, uh, to turn around now and say it's going back to the kid and the kid has moved on as well. Like they've changed their, their footprint for their project. Um, it's too late for that now.
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I think we have to go ahead with construction, but also keep a very close eye to make sure there are no budget overruns. Hmm. And ultimately we have to make sure that, um, the downtown is cleaned up and that that event center does not become a white elephant. Uh-huh.(...) And that will be my goal is to make sure, keep an eye on things, make sure there are no cost overruns, no wild changes, and then to work on our issues downtown as well. As of a few weeks ago, there was still no class B estimate, a class B estimate from what I understand and what I've, uh, from what I know is the final drawings.(...) The final drawings they, that's, you know, then does it now, this is as of three weeks ago, there was still no class B estimate. So(...) how can you go ahead and build something when you may not have the final
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stamped design, uh, with all the price, with all the costs associated with it? That's a very good question. Um, I don't have an answer to that. I will be honest. Um, again, I imagine that that class B estimate should be forthcoming shortly. Um,(...) I mean, they've already, like I said, started construction, putting in the piles and whatnot. Um,(...) when you go to build a house or a garage(...) before, before you get the okay from the city, you're supposed to have(...) all your duck, all your ducks in a row and your final, uh, your final drawings. How can it be that(...) in some cases you can go ahead with a project and in other cases, uh, if you're a resident, you can't.
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Again, there's often, there's often perhaps two sets of rules here. I can't, uh, so I can't comment on that. I don't have that information. Okay. So is
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getting one set of rules, is that something that's possible(...) so that we're all, you know, running from the same, we're all starting from the same place. Yes.
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I would like to have a standard set of rules and everybody follows the rules. Yeah. That's just common sense, right? Yeah. Common sense is a flower that does not grow in everyone's garden. Not always, not always. So the event center, uh, you, you mentioned you want to get to things cleaned up downtown. Yes. What would you,(...) it's good to talk about(...) the ideas, but you know, should you be in the, in that Ward eight seat after the election, what would you actually push towards in order to, you know, clean up the downtown? Okay.
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Uh,(...) it's not an easy, it's not an easy one at all. No, it is not an easy one. It is a complex problem and it is a problem that will not be solved overnight. No, let's put it out there. Yeah. Okay. Um, and again, um, on the board of public health, separate districts for six years now, I am very passionate about social determinants of health.(...) Housing is an important social determinant of health.(...) There are some good things that are happening. So for example, um, in 2024, the Lorraine street transitional housing project opened. Okay. So we are looking at 40 units of transitional housing Lorraine street. Is that new Sudbury? Yes. Okay. On close to McDonald Cartier, uh, on the way to Konej Barayat. Okay. How in that area? Yes. Yeah.
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So what's important about Lorraine street is that, um, a non house person can go
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grab a unit.(...) They do not have to be sober. There are wraparound services there. So the person that is living at Lorraine street will have access to addiction counseling, mental health counseling, medical, uh, social supports as well. And they can stay there and get their, their life together and then transition to regular housing. So that is a start to help with our unhoused population downtown. And it is a, um, a respectful and proven approach. And I know some people are saying, why are we spending money? Well, that $10 investment in the high needs population results in a $21 savings down the road. Okay. And cam H has proven that.
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So that is a very good approach. That's a good investment. It is an excellent investment. And, um, if I'm not mistaken, a second type of that housing is being built on Bruce street or we'll be starting shortly. Okay. Okay. So that's number one. Uh, number two, there is a, the peace tower, the not-for-profit, um, housing downtown that opened. Okay. And again, that's a affordable and deeply affordable housing. So there's 38 units there. That is excellent. That will also help.(...) There's project manager phase one. You're looking at that big building that they're building on top of the hill. You can see the crane downtown downtown, several stories. There's over 300 units there. There, there will be over a hundred units of affordable one bedroom and two bedroom housing there as well. Again, excellent start. You've got the, um, uh, 30 St. Tan street where, uh, the, the, the South of the Chateau, the sisters.(...) I was new to them as gray nuns, but they're, uh, it's up the buildings up on the hill, isn't it? Yes. It's there. There are old convent, I believe. Okay. Um, that is being turned into, um,(...) I don't remember the number of units off hand, but it's a significant number of units of supportive housing. So for that one, you must be sober for at least 30 days. Okay. But again, there will be, um, uh, services in place to help with mental health, um, and whatnot, and people can go there very affordable. Uh, they're also targeting people that are fleeing, um, uh, abusive relationships and domestic violence situations. Yeah. Okay. Again, big need for that. And we've got that housing in place. So all these projects are helping us address that issue downtown. Okay. Um, we just received from the federal government, another $2.5 million.(...) Half of it is going to go towards unhoused seniors to try and meet their needs. And the other half is going towards again, uh, addressing, um, the homeless population. So good starts. Yeah. It sounds like it's a good start on many fronts. What frustrates me though, is that, um, when you have, uh, mental health issues, substance use issues, and in many cases too, uh, people that are homeless, um, also have, um, uh, acquired brain injuries, which led to their homelessness or a traumatic brain injuries. Again, that led or contributed to, to their homeless situation. These are healthcare issues.(...) Healthcare is not a municipal responsibility. Healthcare is a provincial responsibility. Where is our provincial government in helping us with this?(...) Are the two levels of government talking on, uh, you know, are they in communications regarding that? They are. Um, but not as much as I would like. Okay. So would you push for more of that? A hundred percent. Yeah. To get, uh, cause it just helps, well, it helps our community, but it would also help other communities. A hundred percent because this is not just a separate issue. No, it's not. I remember, uh, I think it was two years ago, I went to Hamilton on a Sunday morning(...) and I was rolling through the streets at nine o'clock in the morning and you can see remnants of what happened last night.
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And anyway, is it so definitely, it's not a Sudbury problem. It's a, it's more widespread.
changing gears here, the infrastructure.(...) What are we missing on that? Have we left anything out that you, that's still, you know, as a counselor, you'd want to(...) bring to the forefront, bring to the attention? Certainly. Uh, as a counselor, I would like to work with other councils and with the mayor to lobby the provincial government to fund us properly for, for infrastructure. So I'll give you an example. Uh, in 2022, I believe it's the association of municipalities of Ontario, um,
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did a survey and it discovered that, um, our property taxes in 2022, uh,(...) were the second highest in Canada. And Sudbury?(...) In Ontario, in all of Ontario. So Sudbury's in there too, right? Second highest in Canada. And a third of the services that our municipality covers are funded by provincial governments and other provinces. So that's like stealth downloading. Okay. Okay.(...) And to make matters worse, the, uh, Ontario, um,(...) the, uh, Ontario community infrastructure fund. We are capped at $10 million because of amalgamation. If we were not amalgamated, we would be eligible for $18 million. That's a bit of a difference. Okay.(...) So I think we have to work together as council and mayor to lobby the province to say, Hey, this cap is unfair. You need to rethink this. Your one size fits all approach doesn't work. And there are other similar municipalities that are affected by this. No, there's that cookie cutter word I hear. I know. I remember hearing that cookie cutter approach back in the olden days when I, uh, had a job somewhere, they wanted to put everything in a cookie cutter. It doesn't work. It does not. It sounds great. It sounds great, but, uh, so, um, what about NORDs? Is that what NORDs is? Nope. NORDs is something else. NORDs is the Northern Ontario resource resource development support fund. It's currently capped at $400,000, which is a drop in the bucket. Well, what does that give you? That exists to man, to manage the demands that are placed on the city's infrastructure by our resource industry. So we'll think about, you know, the mine trucks, rumbling down the street, damaging the streets. So the municipality gets 400 K from the province to help combat that.
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I remember seeing a road sign somewhere, roads were doing great work and the culvert replacement was $300,000. Yeah.(...) $400,000. That's one culvert on one road in one ward.
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So again, council and mayor have to effectively lobby the province to get lifted and to have separate declared as a special economic zone because of our mining and critical minerals, which are important for the economy. And that way we have the funds to maintain our infrastructure that is being stressed or damaged or worn out prematurely by the resource sector. So for a special economic zone, shouldn't more of the resources or royalties stay here in the North instead of flowing somewhere else? 100%.(...) How are you, how are you going to do that? Again, we have to lobby the province and make them realize that there is life north of Berry. Or wasn't it north of Perry Sound, Cottage Country?
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Berry, Perry Sound, or... Same thing? Pretty much. Okay. Okay. North of Muskoka, we'll split the difference. Okay, there you go. There you go.
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And yes, we have to make them realize that, listen, you need us, okay? But you have to fund us properly so that we can provide the critical minerals and so that it's not a burden on our citizens. I'm going to throw this out here, but what would happen if Northern Ontario would split from Southern Ontario?
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That's been debated before, right? Did we not have a party at one time that wanted to split the province into two? It's possible. I don't know which one it was. I don't remember that, but(...) I wonder what would that... We better stick to the topics here.
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There's a lot of hypotheticals there. Yeah. So
anything else that you want to bring up before we get too closer to the end?(...) Sure. One of the core roles of the councilor is stewardship. And by stewardship,(...) it's the maintenance of financial integrity and long-term health, welfare, and infrastructure for the municipality. And I take that role to heart. And when elected, I will be a good steward for our ward and for the city as well. So break that down. What does that actually mean for the regular folk?(...) So basically it means(...) reviewing the budgets. Okay.
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Asking those difficult questions with respect to spending. Right. Is this legitimate? Is it worthwhile? What are the returns on this? What is the value for money of this? And making sure that(...) decisions are really benefiting the residents of Sudbury(...) without being financially onerous. Because ultimately when you're on a board like that, or when you're on council,
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the wardy people, I work for them. And it's my responsibility to make sure that when they're paying their taxes, they are getting value for money. And I want to be that steward for them.
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Yeah. They definitely need someone to represent them effectively downtown. So that would,(...) yeah, it's part of the, it's part of the hat that you're choosing to wear 100%. 100%.
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Natalie,
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